CW Letters to editor: "Fatty is unpatriotic" What [Archive]

Rick Beddoe

07-12-2005, 12:22 PM

Steve, go back to the CW homepage and read the article 'The Downside to Circumnavigating'.

I thought the piece was great and very funny in spots '...Two thoughts danced slowly through my brain: One of them was "I'm dying." The other was "Damn, there goes my boat speed!"'

Stepping lightly around the political confrontations, it sounds fairly ridiculous that anyone would take offense to Fatty's article. It amazes me how many people still hold fast to the whole "Us vs. Them" approach between the US and the rest of the world. Our current administration goes a long way towards fostering this notion. It's especially insecure for those who can't take some hard-truth style criticism.

We certainly have reasons to be paranoid...the whole world has the same reasons. The problem is that we try to generalize the actions of a handfull of insane groups. To me, Fatty's article was a plea to look at the human race as decent in a broad sense...show some compassion. At the moment, the loudest voices in America say screw compassion. That may not be the popular opinion, but it is the one that gets the most attention.

It's naiive to believe this attitude won't foster negative feelings. For me, being married to an expatriate has allowed me to have a much different perspective towards the U.S. Fatty's commentary touches on a lot of the grit that rubs the rest of the world the wrong way. As you and I know, however, there's also a great deal of peace and solitude to be found in this country.

All of this could be said about anywhere in the world.

Blye

07-12-2005, 12:29 PM

I re-read the April article and couldn't understand why he was given such a verbal shellacking from a few of the letter writers who saw nothing but anti-American sentiment in the April article "The Downside to Circumnavigating".

Fatty was lamenting on the fact that people get to see so little of the world, that's so big and varied, it's sad. He did it, he circumnavigated on a small (cheap) production boat and watched the world with eyes that opened wider at every port. "I could write a book about every place we stopped" Fatty says in the April Article. He also recalls that as an American he was (in his own words) "Treated with dignity and respect in Islamic Countries.."

Towards the end of the article Fatty is saddened in a bar in St T when he over hears snips of conversion:

"John's new SUV has a DVD player in the back for the kids." "So, I told him, I couldn't live on $ 35.00 and hour and he said 'well if you factor in our health insurance..." "Don't the ragheads realize that you can't rule the world without learning how to use toilet paper".

What I got from the piece was that there's a emptiness one feels after circumnavigating, that you don't look at the world the same way anymore.

I know that's the way it was for Joni and I as well after we spent almost two years drifting around the Caribbean. It didn't make us less "Canadian" for questioning whether we really needed as much 'stuff' as before, it just opened our eyes a bit more. Once you've seen how wonderful even the poorest people in 3rd world countries can be, it makes you feel that much more fortunate to be from the west in a position to do something like "Circumnavigate"

I have had the pleasure of meeting Fatty and Carolyn, and for what it's worth, they are two of the finest people of any citizenship I've ever met.

Tom Young

07-12-2005, 12:36 PM

e orbit by boat around the world. It seems pretty common. Dave Martin who has sailed much of his life and the world had a similar report when entering the "not cruising" world. All the things we are used to, their costs etc. suddenly send some people for a loop.

It must be hard to live a spare life onboard and then try to re enter life. Jobs, homes, schools, all that stuff suddenly hits them. It's not surprising to see you can't pick up where you think you should be on shore.

Fatty is the dyed in the wool cruiser. He's never been off his boat, a modest boat he paid next to nothing for and serves as his home and future. Cruising is his entire life, so far. You can't step into the world most of us know and have it all work. I enjoy his stuff, especially the serious side. I especially enjoyed his account of his rough re-entry.

I suspect he's pretty controversial and I admire CW for putting him front and center in the magazine. So much for the Topsider image.

Tim

07-12-2005, 01:10 PM

A friend of mine retired early after years as an HR person for a major corporation. Though they always "walked the talk" while on shore (by that I mean they lived frugally to fund their sailing dream) the first thing they mentioned on returning from their caribbean excursion of 2 yrs was how glaring and difficult an adjustment it was to be hit in the face, nonstop with the commercialism in this country. And this, from folks who had only been away for two yrs.

Imagine how garish we are to those who have never experienced it.

All my life, I have specifically avoided "commercial succeses." I even go so far as to avoid purchasing products whose advertising is over saturated. Doesn't matter whether its content offends me or not, it's over saturation in itself offends me.

That's why I rarely listen to the radio in the car anymore. I never watch television unless I'm watching a commercial free movie. And while there is a am/fm radio on the boat, there will never be a television receiver on the boat.

My point is, we have gotten what we deserved. And, until the "masses" choose to live a lifestyle that is not consumption based, we are doomed to travel this ugly path as a country.

Little wonder, many american cruisers are now ExPatriots. Individualist by their very choice of life style, why would they even be tempted to return to this mess of commercialism, consumption and self absorption? I can't even imagine a reason. And, perhaps if I'm very lucky, I will be able to leave one day, too.

kokopelli

07-12-2005, 06:14 PM

I had a dream since childhood to have a sailboat that i could sleep on. When i got that boat, a Precision 23, I traveled out to the center of the lake, dropped anchor and jumped off the boat. I swam out a long way before turning to look back. At that moment, I had had a dream come true...no one could have felt any wealthier, no matter the size of their boat or bank account...after all I had had a dream come true and how much richer can you get than that. It is all about perspective.

We have one world and it belongs to all of us...the land and the seas. In other words, we are in this "boat" together. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could all just realize that and work together as the best crew this boat has ever had...can you imagine what a great sail it would be!

bobbi
s/v kokopelli

Tom Young

07-12-2005, 07:34 PM

cruising? Why do so many of those of us who do go, go for a year or two, like Blye is talking about and not the full life like Fatty lives? It' a cheap way to live if you choose the "go small go now" Pardy attitude. Right down through the ranks back to people like the Hisocks, money is not what should be holding cruisers back. It's a glossy life, full of adventure, interest, intrigue(Tristan Jones!), what better way to travel than by sailboat on the oceans of the world. How come we aren't all out there?

Fattys return was not all glossy. His view of my land based world was interesting. I can see, a little, of where he is coming from. I also can understand some discontentment with this land based world, it not all free. For many of us, it's a plan. Makes me think about the choices I have made in my life.

There was a time when I may have been closest to taking such a route, long gone now. Many of us must see that past window. Why didn't we go?It wasn't the money, it wasn't our boats, we all could go if we wanted to(that's the point). It's a choice, a wonderful choice, a life choice, but it's not free,... it has a cost.

Fattys re-entry gave me a few answers, maybe, inadvertantly, he showed alittle of what holds many of us back.
[/i]

James/33'/Australia

07-13-2005, 04:44 AM

What Mr Goodlander observed in his fellow Americans would be somewhat similar in most first world countries. It was a perspective which is almost impossible to gain ashore in our daily 9 to 5 `consumerist' lives.

I find his writings thoroughly enjoyable.

Jeremy McGeary

07-13-2005, 09:13 AM

even than Herb's classic "Bushwacked" editorial last year. People on this board will be happy (most of them) to learn that the vast majority fully support him and can't wait to get their hands on his next article. Heck, I believe he's worth the subscription all by himself -- then you get me and Herb for free :-)

I've put a name to what ails Fatty (or, really, what makes him so spiritually healthy). I call it the Moitessier Syndrome, and I recommend anyone go out and read as much Moitessier as you can lay your hands on. This fall, Sheridan House is bringing out a translation of a biography written by a long-time friend and publisher of his books. (Shameless plug for our friends at Sheridan House).

Rick Beddoe

07-13-2005, 10:30 AM

Jeremy,

I completely agree with that term...'Moitessier Syndrome'.

I hadn't read much by him until we bought our second sailboat 5 years ago. The book came with the boat.

Bernard Moitessier (and possibly to a lesser extent Warram and Heyerdahl) occupy a place in most cruising sailor's minds that seems untouchable. It is a place separated by an unseen threshold. Once past it, there's no going back. Perhaps that is what Fatty experienced. He made it to that place most of us dream about, but deep down (or maybe even right there on the surface) we don't want to let go.

We cheer an enthusiastic 'huzzah!' when one of us manages to let go. We watch them disappear over the horizon then turn around and step right back into the grind. We all have our reasons for not going. But really, they are reasons for staying. When you dig down into the stories, most of them speak of a point where they've 'had enough' and the reasons for staying just didn't add up. Moitessier's situation is a bit unique in that he was born to it.

I know for me, when I first fell in love with sailing 7 years ago, I was ready to say the hell with it and take off around the world. But wait, there was my wife, kids, house, job, car...

Now, 7 years later and 7 years wiser about sailing, it's all I can do to realistically imagine doing more than a 6 month stint. As Tim mentioned in the 'What's the Plan' poll, there are many interests to consider. Is it 'consumerism' that drives those interests? I don't know. What does that mean? The past few years have had their personal challenges. Coming through those has changed my perspective on many things. Mainly, I'm just thankful to be in a position that allows us to have a comfortable life. Our perception of comfort is a meager one and that makes it easy for us.

When we do achieve our plan to cruise, we will be leaving the door open. It may only be open just a crack, but if we find the lifestyle suits us who knows? It might be easier at that point to see that the reasons making us stay were not so meaningful.

Thankfully, we have folks like Fatty to be our proxy. He's a colorful writer and I have no doubts about his support from the sailing/cruising community at large.

Now I have one more thing to toast with my mates in the marina this weekend. :wink:

Steve Honour

07-13-2005, 01:53 PM

Ya know, I read the article when it came out and I totally agree with Fatty. The rampant consumerism in the US is responsible for so much wrongdoing in the name of "just doing business" that it makes me sick.

Walmart is just an example. Here is a company started by a ruthless greedomaniac which is in the process of devouring america and reaching out to do the same overseas. they pull every dirty trick they can think of in their quest, not to do a good business, but to take it all. they want to drive their competition out of business. being the biggest is not enough. never was. Walmart has been very bad for america and it's not done.

They create jobs. for every 100 low paying part time jobs they create, 150 livable full time positions are lost. From the mom and pop small businessess who can't compete to the suppliers who are forced to cut prices or lose volume (often so much that without it they would go under). these suppliers then have to reduce employee benefits, working standards, ala walmart so more jobs are lost.

walmart limits much of the workforce to part time so they don't have to pay benefits. workers have to be full time for two years to get any benefits so many never qualify. They throw customers out of the store who are caught doing price surveys. they make examples of any court case, even the hopless ones they lose, by monsterous legal expenditures to send the message that if you fight walmart you have to have deep pockets to play.

they flasely claim that freight has been lost, damaged so they don't have to pay for it. the stock is then sold. If a competitor tries to play hardball and sell for below cost, walmart sends people to buy them out of stock. the stock then goes right on the walmart shelf.

they cost communities more in taxes than they generate. this happens in the form if increased police and infrastucture burden.

They sell at a loss in selected areas expressley to drive competition under. This is supported by profits from other areas. the same items are priced higher in stores where the competition has been killed.

They do not advertise in local newspapers after the initial store opening. Yet they demand free coverage when they make any type of jesture which might be construed as good will. Often these gestures cost them nothing. Might be a donation of stock they could not sell or such.

They use local banks only to transact daily reciepts which are then transferred the next morning to the home office thus denying the bank any use of the capital at all.

If a small local economy has been tapped out, they just close the store and fire everybody. the once thriving downtown business district is left as a bunch of derelict buildings since walmart always selects a site at the edge of town to draw business away from downtown and of course they get the property cheaper that way. they also buy up more than they need so they can resell it higher to "remora" businesses after they generate new higher traffic.

If a product sells well, they try to steal the idea and have it manufactured cheaper elsewhere. Naturally the supplier is hung out to dry and often more jobs are lost.

they claimed "lowest prices always" but when it was challenged in court and found to be a lie, they lost so they had to change the slogan to "low prices, always". Actual surveys find that many items on a walmart shelf can be found cheaper elswhere. Amazingly, the public often does not believe this and shops there anyway not even knowing they are paying more than they had to.

And people wonder why Fatty is disgusted with the runaway consumerism? Seems simple to me.

Rick Beddoe

07-13-2005, 02:51 PM

Wow Steve, what a downer.

I don't doubt any of it for one second!

Here in Targetland (Minneapolis, MN), we don't see WalMart as much of a factor. I think there are a dozen Walmarts in the Twin Cities as opposed to something like 100 Targets (that could be an exaggeration). Target is not quite as bad as Walmart but it does embody the same idea of 'consumerism'.

This is a fundamental issue: most people are lemmings and will take whatever they can get or follow a simply hypnotic mantra "buy me, buy me". Unfortunately, in terms of the masses, this is the foundation of our country. Walmart would not exist if no one bought what they had to sell. The freedom this country offers carries with it a great deal of responsibility. Unfortunately, that same freedom makes it very easy to ignore responsibility.

What can be done about it? It's a slippery slope...slap a ton of regulations on a company like WalMart (I'm all for it) and who pays? The people with stock in WalMart's well being are the same ones making the rules. The current political climate is extremely favorable for this type of hubris.

Even in light of all this, though it's easy to get torqued about it, it's not enough for me to say I hate it here. We live in a very close community. Our kids are growing up together. We have all that we need. Maybe it's selfish to say so and maybe it dulls my sense of it all. Or maybe it's just that the Midwest ideal is to do more with less.

Again, what can we do? Run away? Does setting off for the horizon solve the problem? Perhaps on return the knowledge and experience gained could somehow influence change. It would be nice to believe that one could be part of the solution.

Clark

07-13-2005, 11:11 PM

What is this?....

"... until the "masses" choose to live a lifestyle that is not consumption based, we are doomed..."

Yep, that would be nice. And rates right up there with "Why can't everyone just get along." What are you rehearsing for the Miss America Pagent?

It just ain't gonna happen, Tim.

As for Fatty's article....well, it was probably the first one Egolander has written worth reading...and surprise....it was again all about himself.

And Steve...what a whopping you give WalMart and its founder, Walton (" started by a ruthless greedomaniac ")....What, you didn't like working there nights?

Please don't highjack this tread for a political discussion on consumerism...it would defeat the whole idea of untreaded topics.

Westcoaster

07-13-2005, 11:15 PM

" Please don't highjack this tread for a political discussion on consumerism...it would defeat the whole idea of untreaded topics.[/quote]

You mean like you just did, Clark? Only with personal insults around in addition......

James/33'/Australia

07-14-2005, 12:53 AM

Somebody's one liner here which I like is

"The best things in life aren't things"

Even when setting up a boat to go cruising the marketing people have us persuaded of all the gadgets we `need' when half the time we end up not using them or they plain don't work. Buying them however required another 6 months to a year of saving before untying the docklines.

I remember one small but luxury boat with washer/drier etc who did their laundry at the marina because it was less hassle and more sociable.

staceyneil

07-16-2005, 03:43 PM

[quote="Tom Young"]"Why do so many of those of us who do go, go for a year or two, like Blye is talking about and not the full life like Fatty lives? It' a cheap way to live if you choose the "go small go now" Pardy attitude. Right down through the ranks back to people like the Hisocks, money is not what should be holding cruisers back. It's a glossy life, full of adventure, interest, intrigue(Tristan Jones!), what better way to travel than by sailboat on the oceans of the world. How come we aren't all out there? Why do so many of those of us who do go, go for a year or two, like Blye is talking about and not the full life like Fatty lives?[quote]"

We're halfway through our 2 years. We WISH we could stay out longer and are scheming up ways to make it happen. We live on less than probably 95% of the cruisers we've met out here... we did not go out to eat or to any bars at all until we got to trinidad where we could buy a roti for $1.70. We eat on board and mostly have seafood we;ve caught ourselves. We RARELY are able to do land travel or tours, and we've never stayed in a marina we were paying for ourselves. We are total "do-it-yourselfers". but we decided to do this cruise without the benefit of life savings or investments, and we quit our jobs altogether to do it. I am a cancer survivor so my health insurance (which we absolutely can't forgo... too risky!) is super-expensive. We recently got all excited because we thought we could do as some friends do and work in Antigua for 4 months and make enough to cruise the rest of the year... but then we realized we hadn't added in the insurance. If not for that expense we could make it work indefinitely.

My point is that we'd be doing this forever if we possibly could. And we're creative people racking our brains how to make it happen... We'll come home and work some more until we can go again.

But believe me, it's just not that simple to stay out indefinitely, no matter how motivated you are to do so and how frugal your cruising lifestyle. We'll come back to the states and work hard for another few years and go again, hopefully!

Stacey
sv ZORA

Brian Woloshin

07-18-2005, 09:02 AM

Look at the average American. They must have the latest everthing, the coolest clothes, the biggest house and the flashiest car.

And they go into extreme debt to pay for it. At the end of the day they are working for the banks and the companies selling them all this stuff. The consumer debt in the U.S. is skyrocketing and a bump in the intererst rate will put a lot of people into trouble. If interest rates go up so will defalts on mortgages. Property values will fall. Many people will find that thay have negative equity in those highly inflated houses that bought with almost nothing down and with interest only mortgages.

Enough of my rant, go sailing.

Of course buying stuff for the boat is an exception. :-))

PS. Hello from Terciera, Azores

Catalina Kids

07-18-2005, 10:33 PM

Hey Brian, it's good to hear from you.

I must be a good cruiser in training our newest vehicle is a 1990, don't have any flashy clothes or a house. 8) We're bugging out in November. I think we can do 6 months and then work 6 months, cruise 6 months, work 6 months. If I could get Patti to drop the home slip rent and the med insurance we could stay gone indefinetly.

Tim

07-18-2005, 11:54 PM

hey Rod,

go east young man, go east. Slip rent in NC or here on the eastern shore is a lot cheaper than what you're paying.

Things have a way of working out. A couple of months into it, she may suggest you drop home slip rent... right after you oiled the kielbasa while bathed in the light of the moon and stars on the foredeck, tell her this is going to have to stop soon so you can re-fill the kitty...

Good luck with it...

cheers.

Logan S/V Scotty Ann

07-19-2005, 07:07 AM

I met Fatti when he was having skidmarks getting around Cape Agulhas. Cool guy. Can't play a guitar drunk for beans. He didn't seem anti-American to me.

Why are American cruisers expatriates? Well, if you leave America to sail, aren't you, by definition, an expatriate -- unless you never leave the territorial waters of the USA, which I don't really think counts as cruising sailing.

Tom Young

07-19-2005, 07:11 AM

Stacy mentions that it alone will send them shoreside. The days of cheap insurance for cruisers just a decade or two ago are now over. Seems again, age is as much the cause. Many of us wouldn't worry about it in our 20's or even 30's and could cruise on a shoe string-not after health insurance premiums kick in.

I wonder if more Canadians are full time cruisers(not a year a two) because of their national health program?

It still looks like it's difficult to make much money along the way. What's the solution for someone like Stacy and Neil on Zorra to cruise full time? How are those out there, full time, doing it?

Saorsa

07-19-2005, 11:09 AM

[quote="Tom Young"]
I wonder if more Canadians are full time cruisers(not a year a two) because of their national health program?
quote]

According to the canadians who inhabit Florida in the winter, they can only stay out of the country 6 months and then have to return for some amount of time to retain eligibility.

Westcoaster

07-19-2005, 11:18 AM

[quote="It still looks like it's difficult to make much money along the way....... How are those out there, full time, doing it?[/quote]

I always harken back to my old friend, Smitty, who started cruising in his early 40's, was gone for nearly seven years. He had no boat insurance, no health insurance, no fancy life raft just a hard dinghy on deck, no epirb, no vhf radio, and it was before GPS. He kept time with a radio for WWV and a stop watch. He always figured he got himself into this mess and he'd either get himself out or not..... He worked along the way doing whatever he could because he didn't want his kitty to deplete too fast. Sometimes he'd go a year without working, other times he'd work for a month or two here or there, being a jack of all trades kinda guy.

Another couple I know lived aboard their boat for ten years paying it off, living cheaply, building their kitty, then sold out and took off sailing for 4 1/2 years in the South Pacific never working once. When they got home, they sold the boat and moved ashore but brother they had a great cruise, their second of similar duration, the earlier having been in a 26' boat around Mexico and the Caribbean.

It's truly about ACTUALLY going, one way or another. I always thought I'd cruise more when I was older. At 58 I'm gimpy with 'ritis and my shoulders are shot but now I have the money to cruise....oh, just not the health. And I can't complain about that, it's the luck of the draw and I've had some great memories of cruising the bit I did. But a person has to ask themselves, "what will be my luck?" before they put it off perhaps too long................

Jeff H

07-19-2005, 02:01 PM

First for Westcoaster, there is a whole lot that can be done to improve shoulders these days fom simple exercises and icing them down after a really hard workout, which I do, to surgeries of all kinds. That should not stop you from getting out there.

But more to the point, while at some level I agree with Fatty about rampant consumerism, I also think that there are a lot of ways to enjoy sailing and frankly, I am uncomfortable with the idea that the only 'universally right' kind of sailing is going 'out there'.

For some, distance cruising is truly an end-all-and-be-all, and at some level I completely understand that sentiment. But for many, like myself, I enjoy being a part of a land based as well as water based community, and enjoy living a life that is connected to where I live, the work I do, and the people that I share my life with. Like many coastal cruisers, I probably get as many hours underway as many distance cruisers and liveaboards, but if not, I have nothing to prove to them. I enjoy my life and I enjoy the kind of sailing that I do, which by and large is coastal cruising.

In the end the universal right answer is to enjoy and appreciate the life that you have been given even if there is not one universally right method to do so. And so it is that I think that it is somehow wrong-headed to say that everyone needs to chuck it all and go distance cruising. For some that is the truly the right answer but certainly not for all. For many the right answer is to find the people and places and activities that give them peace, joy and illuminate their very souls and that joy may come in home waters and more modest adventure.

Respectfully,
Jeff

Westcoaster

07-19-2005, 02:29 PM

..two operations on the right shoulder, can't take much more medicine and avoid having the left one done 'cuz it still has full range of motion. Next you'll be advising I take Vioxx. Sorry, I'm still mad at Bill Frist.

I agree that sailing is where you find it, where you like it. I have for years maintained that the size of the adventure is relative to the size of the boat on the size of the waters. My point was that for those who want to go "out there" and do it but have myriad excuses for why they don't, well, time's a'wastin' and if you keep putting it off waiting for the perfect moment it ain't gonna happen without a concrete plan, at least. Or, as they say in the psych world, "Not to decide, is to decide." One guy posted on a BB I read a few days ago and said of not being out cruising, "I'm Dying". It's better to just head out than die ashore...or wait too long. There's a price for everything and those who succeed in their dreams are those who are willing to pay the price. I've been on both sides of that which is why I know it to be true.

Cheers.

Brad Whitehurst

07-19-2005, 03:08 PM

....
For some, distance cruising is truly an end-all-and-be-all, and at some level I completely understand that sentiment. But for many, like myself, I enjoy being a part of a land based as well as water based community, and enjoy living a life that is connected to where I live, the work I do, and the people that I share my life with. Like many coastal cruisers, I probably get as many hours underway as many distance cruisers and liveaboards, but if not, I have nothing to prove to them. I enjoy my life and I enjoy the kind of sailing that I do, which by and large is coastal cruising.

....
Respectfully,
Jeff

Hey Jeff, I think that was Synergy we saw on Sunday as we were heading back into Mill Creek? Despite, or perhaps because of the heat warning, sailing was actually pretty good on Sunday afternoon. I was surprised at the relatively light boat traffic out there, and continue to note the number of boats on Mill Creek and elsewhere that never move. Like the nice little daysailer keelboat that is still sitting on that dock from Hurrican Isabel! I drive 60 miles each way to work and sail my boat. I know "life happens" but the number of boat owners that live close to their boats and never move them is astounding to me. To heck with "getting out there" as in sailing to (Aruba...Zanzibar), what about "getting out there" for an afternoon like us?

I was taking some of my crew out with borrowed equipment and improvised rigging to sort out flying a spinnaker for the first time (for any of us). Light winds were just about right for newbies. We launched, reached, ran, jibed, and doused without any wraps, rips, shrimps, or bumps. A decent first try.

Jeff H

07-19-2005, 03:32 PM

Brad Whitehurst

07-19-2005, 04:52 PM

Hi Brad,

That was Synergy. I raced OPB on a Catalina 27 in the Solomon's Island Race on friday night and Saturday morning and then was out again on Sunday on Synergy. We had sailed north of the Bay Bridge and then beat back. It was great sailing. We stopped in Whitehall Bay for a swim before sailing home. The wind completely died in the Severn giving me a much needed chance to top up Synergy's batteries. :wink:

Congrats on the successful newbie crew work.

Regards,
Jeff

I'm trying to get semi-ready to sail the Governor's Cup in PHRF C so I can chase another Tartan 30 skipper (who himself is entering to chase his local nemesis on the Magothy) down the bay. I know people who swear they'll never sail the Gov Cup again in anything shorter/slower than a 40 footer due to the masochism factor of getting becalmed at dawn in the mouth of the Potomac. I helped crew a nonspin Tartan 30 in a light air Gov Cup so I know what they mean, but figured what the heck, try the spin and see what happens. Now I have to convince enough crew to jump in with me. Watch it be a beat all the way down the bay...

Brad

Jeff H

07-19-2005, 05:50 PM

Its funny about these distance races, I had sworn off of them years ago and even then I had said that I would not do one on anything that rated less the 87 or so. But somehow I seem to end up doing these races every so often, this time on a Catalina 27. The race was pretty much a close reach/beat the whole way with surprisingly good winds once we got out of Annapolis Harbor. That was good because we only had 4 people on board so a spinnaker race would have really wiped us out. As it was I only got about 15 minutes of sleep. As you can imagine by the end of the race I felt like a million bucks......green and wrinkley.

Regards,
Jeff

Zuckerman

07-19-2005, 11:49 PM

Tim

07-20-2005, 12:20 AM

But why oh why is this topic all over the place in subject matter?

when are they not?

Contrary to the nay sayers who left like rats off a sinking ship, this format is nearly as conducive to "conversation" as the preferred tree style. One just has to open the thread to find out.

Brad Whitehurst

07-20-2005, 09:08 AM

Well, okay. Where to start? This topic is just all over the place with a few locaal sailors see each other out sailing, racing sailors, health insurance and who goes cruising and why they cruise, and how to work or otherwise support your cruising.....it is just nuts.

Anyway, let me suggest that Stacyneal not come back to the states to work, but rather just go to the American Virgins or Puerto Rico where it is legal for them to work as Americans(they are Americans, right?) There are large numbers of liveaboards there also and plenty of support groups for and by cruisers.

Westcoaster... that is a shame about having the money now but no the health to go long distance cruising; a not uncommon situation that I think a lot of others could benefit by if you could post a separate topic on it.

Also, it is true that Chatty Egolander has mellowed and hopefully discovered there are people around other than himself. This was probably his biggest epiphany on his long sail. And Logan is right....he can't play the guitar very well when drunk....or sober for that matter.

And I'm very glad that Jeff H. had a good sail....he deserves it.

But why oh why is this topic all over the place in subject matter?

Yes dear. Sheesh, I love list police. This is just one of the reasons why this format (w/ all respect to Tim) is awkward. If you don't want a conversation, just a list of "info please" subjects, you are falling into the same "XYZ for Dummies" how-to mode of writing that infects so much of modern society. I'm not a particularly good writer, but I do appreciate the ebb and flow of conversational correspondence. So many just stamp their feet, pout and shout, "No! Tell me what I want NOW."

Lord Chesterfield, the great correspondence author of the 18th century, would be appalled at the decrepit state of the art of correspondence, even in the face of delivery methods which would have astonished and delighted him and every letter writer of previous ages. Even though he wrote to individuals, his letters were published and enjoyed by many as examples of the art of writing and conversation. Some of the classic correspondents on this board and its predecessor, Jon Eisberg, Tom Young, Peggie Hall, and even bernie (despite the spelling) I think understood something of correspondence and why good writing can interest persons who may not know of any immediate need to be informed (Some correspondence isn't about "informing". It may also amuse, analyze, or merely ruminate.) about the subject at hand.

One model is a sailors' bar, the other is a customer service desk at a software company. Guess which one I prefer.

Tim

07-20-2005, 09:46 AM

Brad, I disagree for the same reasons.

With this style list, you can very quickly read the entire thread. Two or three clicks, if there is more than one page. To me, the conversation rolls out much more natural than clicking around and waiting, always waiting for the next post to come up.

Yes, you can skip over posts by obnoxious posters in the WebBBs style format, but there is nothing that says just because the page is open and a post is in front of you, that you have to read it.

On the other hand, I followed your conversation with Jeff about the sailing and racing and enjoyed the read, where I might not have read it otherwise.

The bottom line as you pointed out, is the quality of the posts. One of the reasons I'm still here is because most of the list police and other assorted assholes ran like spoiled children to the "other" board. Most of the folks left here are reasonable people. It may just be, that this board is capable of building a following of posters again. New posters, different posters, posters unlike the testosterone induced petulance of the previous couple of years on this board.

Posters who perhaps, are here for the quality of the conversation, not for the "right" format.

Or, it could fizzle and die. And, if it does, I will move on. For all I know, is that when I began hanging out on bulletin boards in the early 1990s, I found people of like mind. Sailors who enjoyed each other's company. I don't find that much anymore. Some of that may be due to my increasing intolerance for childish behavior from so-called adults. Some of it may be that the proliferation of computers in society has lowered the lowest common denominator of the user.

Regardless, it's all getting quite mundane, particularly the group who so eagerly ran away to something familiar when a change was made.

So there it is. It has nothing to do with loyalty for me, so much as it's about an experiment in conversation. I hope you'll stick around because I have always enjoyed our exchanges.

Clark

07-20-2005, 01:32 PM

Tim, ...
"With this style list, you can very quickly read the entire thread."

Don't you mean, with this style you HAVE TO READ the entire topic? If you don't read through each topic there is no way to know who has responded and what the response was.

For example, to have " followed your conversation with Jeff about the sailing and racing" you had to read though ALL the sponses. What is more, there was no way for you to know 'who' responded to the subject....remember, it was about Fatty Goodlander and cruising.

It seems to me you have to read through EVERY topic and try to keep in mind what sidetracks each one has taken when you visit or you can't get back into which one you were interested in.

Let's face it. This style sucks and there is no two ways about it.

I'll see you, and eventually, everyone else here at CSBB.

Tim

07-20-2005, 02:01 PM

Clark,

You speak to me in the familiar. I do not recognize your handle.

Twice now, you have evaluated and made assumptions about my posts that were both inaccurate and inflammatory. Now, either we do have a history and you are operating onder a new alias, too cowardly to show your face; or perhaps you are a lurker that has developed a dislike for my posting without ever bothering to engage before; or even worse, someone new to the board just stirring the pot out of some resentment for CW, the suits or who knows what other hidden terrors there are in your pathetic existence.

Regardless of where you fit on that spectrum, do not presume to tell me what I will be doing, now or any other time. And, until you expose yourself to me as a familiar, I will not respond to you again. And even then I might not, since I would perceive your attacks on me to be not only cowardly, but hypocritical as well.

Rick Beddoe

07-20-2005, 06:03 PM

Eventually past and present trolls will head back to the protection of their hovel.

It cracks me up to hear 'and you have to read ALL the posts'.

:?: :?: :?: :?:

Unless I'm missing something, I don't recall any laws, commandments, edicts, or otherwise requiring me to even be here. Read 'em...don't read 'em. Big deal. It seems to me that the established busy bodies who populated this place before spent way too much time online.

And I'm sorry, the indented 'threads' didn't make anything easier. In fact, in some of those meaningless, long-winded replies-replies-replies it was easy to get lost as soon as someone went back in the thread and replied after-the-fact.

I'm glad I was here when the transition took place. It sure is a friendlier place now (with some antiquated exceptions who claimed were 'leaving for good')...

Most of the folks left here are reasonable people

It's good to see those of you who stayed..and a hardy Welcome to the newcomers. :)

Keep fighting the good fight, Tim

Clark

07-21-2005, 12:31 AM

Ugh, sorry there Tim. I wouldn't want to appear 'familiar' . I guess I was under the impression that boating and such gave a common ground for discussing these things.

But why attack me? I haven't done or said anything more than express my opinion. But I guess even that isn't necessary to show the inadequacies of this format.

Just look at the stats.

With 264 registered posters here, only 164 have posted anything at all.

In fact of those 164, yourself, Rick B, Fred, Tom Young and Saorsa account for about 80 percent of all posts....litterally 194 posts by you five guys. Why not just get a private room?

But in any case, I'm obviously 'out of here'. Too damn unfriendly for me.

Jon Eisberg

07-21-2005, 10:31 PM

One of the things I miss most here is the primacy of the "subject line"... it all but goes unnoticed reading these posts now, it's fitting that it has become hidden away in even smaller type than the text of a message... I would say the elimination of the subject line is perhaps the biggest disadvantage of a non-threaded format...

Brad Whitehurst wrote:

Lord Chesterfield, the great correspondence author of the 18th century, would be appalled at the decrepit state of the art of correspondence, even in the face of delivery methods which would have astonished and delighted him and every letter writer of previous ages. Even though he wrote to individuals, his letters were published and enjoyed by many as examples of the art of writing and conversation. Some of the classic correspondents on this board and its predecessor, Jon Eisberg, Tom Young, Peggie Hall, and even bernie (despite the spelling) I think understood something of correspondence and why good writing can interest persons who may not know of any immediate need to be informed (Some correspondence isn't about "informing". It may also amuse, analyze, or merely ruminate.) about the subject at hand.

Thanks for the compliment, Brad - back in the old days, I really did get some pleasure from crafting a post from time to time... I always thought that a subject line well linked to the body of a post was often what made a bit of writing more memorable. It was certainly the basis for much of the humor to be found here, in much the same way a well-crafted header tied in with a follow-up was akin to a comedian's "timing"... Certainly, the thing that strikes me most after lurking here in the last few weeks is the virtual elimination of humor from the discourse here... there have been some humorous things written here, of course, but they are very few and far between, and the "banter" of the old days is all but impossible in this format, it seems to me...

Not that anyone at World Publications (separate to the CW editorial staff, mind you) actually gives a ****************, but I think the big factor they may have underestimated is that many of the CWBB's best resources were here primarily for fun... In very much the same way one goes into a neighborhood bar for a few drinks, and to shoot the **************** about boats and sailing... Even if anyone at World Pubs realized the incredible resource they had here, they seemed to think that many of us would continue to visit this pub, if for no other reason than to wait for some lost tourist to walk in the place, asking for directions... The notion that we should all be hanging around here, just waiting to inform whoever asks whatever, is the presumption that bugs the **************** out of me about this format.... they've taken away so much of the fun of being here, yet the expectation seems to remain that we should be standing by to answer any and all questions...

with all due respect to Tim, and Rick Beddoe, and others, it is completely beyond me how anyone regards this format as "more conversational"... that may be true if you're on this board consistently and frequently, almost like in a chat room... but, if you travel often like me, away from the board for days at a time, and then wish to check in - very often on a slow dial-up connection - this format simply does not work... There's no way in hell I'm gonna open a Photo day thread to see the two most recent photos that might have been added since my last visit, without even knowing who posted them, and having to wait for the ENTIRE THREAD OF PREVIOUS PHOTOS to open first...

When I was out cruising, or on a delivery, I used to love opening the CWBB page after being away for awhile, and seeing something like "178 messages posted since your last visit"... ****************, it was like being a kid in a candy store, you'd start scrolling down looking for familiar names and, yes, intriguing subject lines... there's just no reasonable way to do that anymore, and sadly, I think that is the primary reason it will be very unlikely to be seeing someone like Evans starzinger here anymore...

I'm glad to see that folks like Tom Young, Dave Gibson, Jeff H, Tim and several others still contribute here... I really wish I could muster some more enthusiasm, perhaps that will happen after a time... But, I really believe that it's more than just a personal preference, I think there are many real technical and logistical reasons why this format does not encourage the sort of "correspondence" that brad spoke of above...

best regards,

Jon

Tim

08-01-2005, 01:26 PM

You have a point, Jon. As do all the folks who must have their threaded subject lines from which to pick and choose.

however, this board type is the board of choice among the stock discussion folks I hang with. They use it to full advantage and after only a few months of using it, I prefer it to the csbb type, which I had used 8 yrs previously.

But then, one has to actually use it and explore its possibilities to discover the advantages...

cheers.

Rick Beddoe

08-01-2005, 02:46 PM

One of the things I miss most here is the primacy of the "subject line"... it all but goes unnoticed reading these posts now, it's fitting that it has become hidden away in even smaller type than the text of a message... I would say the elimination of the subject line is perhaps the biggest disadvantage of a non-threaded format...

Again, a matter of taste. Personally, I found most of the subject lines terribly annoying. The occassional clever ones were overshadowed by the bad spellerz, pour typpists, and major attitude. No offense to Italians (I'm 1/2) but it's like sitting at a dinner table at an Italian family reunion. too much noise and bs. Not to mention that many of the threads got so long they were scrunched up on the right hand side of the screen making them completely unreadable.

with all due respect to Tim, and Rick Beddoe, and others, it is completely beyond me how anyone regards this format as "more conversational"... that may be true if you're on this board consistently and frequently, almost like in a chat room... but, if you travel often like me, away from the board for days at a time, and then wish to check in - very often on a slow dial-up connection - this format simply does not work...

Not sure anyone claimed phpbb to be 'more conversational'. Not sure that's really an appropriate application for the bulletin board of a national publication. Especially considering that a lot of the 'conversations' boiled down to tit-for-tat selfish arguing. Again, not the image CW wants to portray I'm sure.

You certainly do have a point regarding dial-up. This format is graphically rich and it can be a drag for the dial-up crowd. If you are traveling in hotels and airports, most now have broadband but that still doesn't help if you are off the beaten path.

Bottom line, it seems to me that CW wanted to have a more polished 'back end' for its customers. There is a place for the CS-BB and more power to those who find bickering and prattling to be enjoyable. Already there is a great whining about how much the new format is not liked...and that's the new format of their beloved CS-BB!. I had a difficult time getting any useful info from the place not to mention that, since I wasn't 'part of the crowd', most of my posts went unanswered. Not fun.

What Tim and others have pointed out, at least for now, is that this place seems a bit friendlier. Don't know if that means 'more converstional', but it certainly is more approachable.

Plus, having the topics neatly organized helps keep some of the whining at bay. It doesn't dominate the board.

Now, in terms of writing, there is a lot more opportunity for Expression if one takes the time to utilize the tools available. :wink:

The inline graphic http://www.srh.noaa.gov/hgx/stormsignals/images/storm.giffeature is kind of nice too. Plus, the fact that you can go back an edit previous posts is pretty handy as well. I don't doubt folks get annoyed by emoticons, bold/italic/coloured text, (and my longwinded posts). But, I'm having fun so far and besides my good buddy Fred, I haven't taken any flak.

Again, a lot of this is personal preference and comfort level. Notice that no one here has claimed this format to be THE BEST IN THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE as would be posited by other personalities in the past...just a personally preferred format and around here, that's just ok. :)

Jon, I consider you one of the more civil members I've come across. Your posts have been enlightening and a pleasure to read. I hope you do decide to stop by when you can and keep us informed.