Baba 40

[Anonymous]

Anyone care to comment about the sailing performance of the Baba 40? Thanks.

[Fred]

You should take your question to the new, new threaded (just like the old CWBB) Crusing Sailors BB at

http://www.cs-bb.com/forums/CSBB/index.cgi/#12001

IT'S WHERE IT'S AT!

[bob perry]

Jules:
I know the boat well. Of all the full keel boats I have known over the last 45 years the Baba 40 sails better than most. In fact with a tall rig the Baba 40 will give valiant 40 a run for it's money. The Valiant will win eventually But the baba can sail very well. The boat is beautifully balanced and light on the helm. The boat is reasonably stiff and has good directional stability.

The boat cannot back up under power worth a damn.

Upwind in a good breeze the Baba 40 rules.

[RichH]

Huh?

PHRF-NE http://www.phrfne.org/page/567
Valiant 40-1 138
Valiant 40-2 132
Baba 40 183
Tayana 37 174

[bob perry]

RichH: re-read my post more carefully this time. I mention a tall rigged Baba. We have two to my knowldege. The one in Seattle has 5' extra stick with a dolphin striker and has been raced extensively including a TransPac. This is the boat I raced in my V 40. I had a fixed three blade prop at the time but brand new North sails and my boat was very ight for a V40. I could beat the Tall rigged Baba but I had to work at it. The tall rigged baba in San Diego has 6'10" more stick than the stock Baba. That boat has not been raced so I have no relative speed reports.

I would not dare question PHRF ratings (Clifton Clowers might). But, I know what I see and I've seen a lot.

Now I will retire to the beach cabin where I will watch the rain come down and try to finish Shelby Foote's Civel War trilogy.

[RichH]

A 6 ft. extra length stick gives about 9% more SA (1280 sq. ft.) .... that ought to move it. :roll:

[Rick Beddoe]

Bob, you crack me up. :)

RichH...careful with Baba guffaws. We Baba owners are a small but fiercely prejudiced bunch. And when you see some lovely canoe sterned beauty beat the pants off you in a stiff breeze (I've done it more than once) you'll be left scratching your head. :P

[RichH]

Rick --- With a 222 PHRF (LIS) you better be careful that you're not overtaken by a glacier or mistakenly hauled out of the water by a CG bouy tender. :twisted: <g>

[Rick Beddoe]

As Bob said, I won't argue with PHRF. I just know what I've seen. Maybe I was lucky and the folks sailing their shiny new Catahunterteau were worse sailors than I. Which isn't saying much since I'm not all that good. :lol:

[Cindy - s/v Mandisa]

Remember, PHRF is an all-round rating. Put us on a real race course and you'll probably kick our butt. But get us in our sweet spot and we'll make you look like a fool!!
:twisted:

Cindy

[bob perry]

When you look at PHRF numbers for Baba's consider this. Most sailors who would chose to race a Baba are not very tuned to yacht racing and often times the rating can reflect the skill level of the sailor as much as the speed potential of the boat. It's not supposed to be that way any more but when you have a very small number of any one boat racing it often happens. It can also happen the other way too. One good sailor in a class can skew the rating to the fast side while one really bad sailor can do the same the other way.

Here's what I know about baba 30 boat speed. I was on my way to the Perry Rendezvous but due to a soccer game committment I was late getting off and I missed the start of the informal race to the anchorage. So I motored. When I finally caught up with the last boat in the fleet it was Baba 30 flying a big drifter and full main. The wind was blowing a steady 6 knots. I couldn't just motor over, or under, the little Baba, that would look terrible, so I reluctantly put up my sails and began to sail. I was behind the Baba and I expected to just march over the top of it with my brand new North sails but it took me quite a while to slide by the Baba 30. I was surprised and impressed. Of course I was faster and I pointed higher but none the less I felt the Baba 30 was moving well.

Some day I'll tell you the story about how I sailed circles around a C&C Omega 30 in a Baba 30. How could I make someting that weird up?

[Rick Beddoe]

Well, it would be foolhardy to brag about Baba 30 and boatspeed. But as Cindy said, get the boat in its sweet spot and it really is surprising. We fly the stock configuration - stays'l + yankee - and on a beam reach or a little off of close hauled in 15 kts we can easily keep up (and sometimes pass) other 'performance oriented' boats of similar length. Are we going to trounce a J180? Nope. But we also won't have to make a trip to the chiropractor and the orthodontist as soon as we get off the boat.

However, in light winds dead astern we're terrible. I was shown the door by a friend's 23' Precision. I think his big genoa had something to do with it. That is the only drawback with my headsail combo. Luckily, we rarely have winds under 10 kts.

Bob, save your story for The Book! :D (I'd like to preorder 10 copies now, thank you :D )

[bob perry]

Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick:
never sail with the wind dead astern if you are looking for boat speed. Always "heat the boat up" and bring that apparent wind forward and reach. Your downwind VMG's will be much higher and the boat will be more fun to sail.

[Rick Beddoe]

plus - as we learned last weekend - it's hot as the dickens when sailing downwind!

we usually avoid sailing downwind. Our 'lake' is only 1 mile wide so we don't have a lot of options if the winds are lengthwise along the lake. It's all good though as the winds are typically on the beam.

In the above instance, the winds were very light and we didn't have much hope on any point of sail. In fact, if I recall, we eventually dropped sails and motored.

We sailed downwind all the time with our Capri 22 and 135 poled out. Apples and oranges, I know.

Speaking of downwind (or a following sea), the boat exhibits a dramatic tendancy to roll from side to side. We experienced this in the Straight of Juan de Fuca in a Baba we rented out of Anacortes. In addition to the following sea there was a crosswise component coming from Haro straight. It was a bit confused. What would be a good strategy in this case?

[bob perry]

Rick: there are a couple of things at work here. If you are sailing dead down wind you have a big sail on one side of the boat and a smaller sail on the other ( wing/wunged out). This gives an imbalance of sail areas that can contribute to the roll and is why in the old days you saw racing IOR boats carry bloopers along with spinnakers, i.e. to create a more balanced sail plan, also one of the reasons why twin genoas wre often consdered the ultimate rig for long distance DDW sailing.

Then you have the round bilge sectinal shape of the baba with it's low initial stability. This means that the Baba 30 has to heel about 15 degrees before it begins to pick up any form stability. This hull shape combined with that sail arrangement will make the boat rolly when it's being sailed dead down wind. Another reason you should ALWAYS reach.

Of course there may have been some wave thing going on also that contributed to the problem. But any boat with low initial stability and an unbalanced rig will tend to roll when sailed DDW. If you had a boat with a hard turn to the bilge and high initial stability you would noit have this problem but you might have a snappier roll and a quick roll that is more uncomfortable.

Old IOR boats were penalized for initial stability. They had ribbon narrow mains and huge fore triangles. This was a receipe for terrible of the wind handling characteristics. Many of those boats were only managable if you hoisted the blooper to offset the area of the spinnaker. But this was back in the days when we did tend to sail the boats DDW. Of course the benefits of reaching will vary from boat type to boat type ( probably based upon displacement) but in general it's always bad to sail DDW.

I don't care what the boat is 99.9% of the time you are better off sailing no lower than 150 degrees apparent wind and the lighter it is the higher you should reach.I know there are a lot of you who love wing and wing and that's just fine with me.Just don't try to tell me it's fast. Obviosly in half a gale you are fast sailing DDW in terms of VMG but you must also consider the handling issues.

[Bill Kranidis]

Rick: there are a couple of things at work here. If you are sailing dead down wind you have a big sail on one side of the boat and a smaller sail on the other ( wing/wunged out). This gives an imbalance of sail areas that can contribute to the roll and is why in the old days you saw racing IOR boats carry bloopers along with spinnakers, i.e. to create a more balanced sail plan, also one of the reasons why twin genoas wre often consdered the ultimate rig for long distance DDW sailing.

Then you have the round bilge sectinal shape of the baba with it's low initial stability. This means that the Baba 30 has to heel about 15 degrees before it begins to pick up any form stability. This hull shape combined with that sail arrangement will make the boat rolly when it's being sailed dead down wind. Another reason you should ALWAYS reach.

Of course there may have been some wave thing going on also that contributed to the problem. But any boat with low initial stability and an unbalanced rig will tend to roll when sailed DDW. If you had a boat with a hard turn to the bilge and high initial stability you would noit have this problem but you might have a snappier roll and a quick roll that is more uncomfortable.

Old IOR boats were penalized for initial stability. They had ribbon narrow mains and huge fore triangles. This was a receipe for terrible of the wind handling characteristics. Many of those boats were only managable if you hoisted the blooper to offset the area of the spinnaker. But this was back in the days when we did tend to sail the boats DDW. Of course the benefits of reaching will vary from boat type to boat type ( probably based upon displacement) but in general it's always bad to sail DDW.

I don't care what the boat is 99.9% of the time you are better off sailing no lower than 150 degrees apparent wind and the lighter it is the higher you should reach.I know there are a lot of you who love wing and wing and that's just fine with me.Just don't try to tell me it's fast. Obviosly in half a gale you are fast sailing DDW in terms of VMG but you must also consider the handling issues.

Last time I flew anything wing and wing, was a kite when I was 4 yo :)

[Rick Beddoe]

Bob,

Your explanation is the best I've ever heard. I thought I was doing something wrong by not sailing DDW when I've seen so many other boats doing it.

Your mention of 15 degrees with regards to initial stability is spot on with our experience. The first 15 degrees comes easy. It takes a lot more effort to make the boat heel beyond that for more than a second. This is one of my favorite features of the vessel. It is such a smooth motion. If it wasn't for all the poorly secured toys, shoes, and other stuff crashing around down below, we'd hardly notice 30 degrees.

[Cindy - s/v Mandisa]

Hey Bill!

Did you ever get your Mariner 36? We saw a really pretty M35 a week or so ago - part of a wooden boat regata I think.

I always thought there should be a crab crusher racing class. It would be fun to see how a M31 and a Baba 30 would stack up.

[Bill Kranidis]

Hey Bill!

Did you ever get your Mariner 36? We saw a really pretty M35 a week or so ago - part of a wooden boat regata I think.

I always thought there should be a crab crusher racing class. It would be fun to see how a M31 and a Baba 30 would stack up.

Hi, Cindy

No, but I've been sailing a Morgan 42 for the last 4 years.

I wouldn't dare touch anything wooden.....no more projects for me.

As far as the Baba30/Mariner31 duel goes...... I'll take the M31 hands down, Cindy. I did a Baba35 in once, on a LONG reach. Just could not keep up with me. Sorry but it's the truth. He knew we were raising too :)

Cheers,

Bill

[bob perry]

Bill, not that I doubt your experience but in that M31/Baba 35 race I'd go for pink slips any day. As for the Baba30 against the M31, I'd might not go for pink slips on that one but I'd be willing to wager a bottle of very fine wine.

It's my experience that everyone has their "the day I beat (fill in boat type here) story". I resort to PHRF ratings myself qualify the claims. Unfortunately with the Baba 30 and the M31 I'm not sure either rating would be accurate enough to tell us much. I'll just asume that old Bill is one hell of a sailor.

[Bill Kranidis]

Bill, not that I doubt your experience but in that M31/Baba 35 race I'd go for pink slips any day. As for the Baba30 against the M31, I'd might not go for pink slips on that one but I'd be willing to wager a bottle of very fine wine.

It's my experience that everyone has their "the day I beat (fill in boat type here) story". I resort to PHRF ratings myself qualify the claims. Unfortunately with the Baba 30 and the M31 I'm not sure either rating would be accurate enough to tell us much. I'll just asume that old Bill is one hell of a sailor.

Will that real Baba35 owner stand up and say "It's true" :)

Maybe I'm one helluva sailor or the Baba 35 sailor just sucked, Bob. Take your pick. All I know, is that he had 40nm to cover the distance and he didn't.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

Bill

[Rick Beddoe]

The M31 does have 1 foot more LWL and is about 1500 lbs lighter with a narrower beam. So based on the specs, it sounds a tad faster.

How the heck did we get caught up in a conversation about Babas being fast anyway??? :roll:

I know that's not why I got involved in this relationship. Sure, she sails great and I'm going to stick up for my girls, but with regards to speed, racing, etc...who cares? If we happen to sail faster than another boat, there's probably a very good reason why.

So, back to the original post, buy a Baba 40 first for the comfort and security and beauty. Everything else is skill or luck and that just sounds like too much work. :P

[Cindy - s/v Mandisa]

Bill,

He was probably loaded down from circumnavigating!! :P

[bob perry]

He might have been polishing his belaying pin.

[Rick Beddoe]

He might have been polishing his belaying pin.

HA! :lol:

I lost one of my belaying pins this past weekend. bummer.

[Cindy - s/v Mandisa]

If this was the old threaded style, I would just start a new branch under the origonal question. Hopefully, the OP is still with the thread.

I've never sailed on a Baba 40, but I've spent quite a bit of time on a Baba 30 and I know that many of the characteristics are similar.

Babas like wind. A good stiff breeze is a joy in a Baba. Your performance in light air will depend on your point of sail and the sails you are using. Other factors like currents and dinner reservations will also factor in to your choice of starting the engine or not.

Babas like to heel. Bob has addressed the reasons for this so I won't dwell on it other than to say you'll be amazed at how quickly you get used to it, and you may also be amazed at how it surprises your guests.

Babas don't like sudden maneuvers. You'll want to plan your tacks and gybes a little more than you might on a lighter boat. If you think the geezer in the Harbor 20 is going to cut in front of you, have a plan for dealing with it before it happens.

Babas don't like to reverse under power. (Actually, this is true of all full keel / apperture prop boats.) When you hear someone say this isn't the case, it just means that they've learned the tricks. The good news is you can learn the tricks too.

There are a lot of non-sailing characteristics I could talk about too (like how Baba galleys are great for cooking wonderful things and how Babas are great for meeting other boaters), but the topic was about about sailing and heaven forbid we get off topic!! ;)

Cindy